Dalia Mogahed on Islam and the Promise of America

EDITORS’ NOTE: Dalia Mogahed — a member of former President Barack Obama’s inaugural Advisory Faith Council and Director of Research at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding — discusses her insights on Perception of Muslims, Understanding Polling, Rise in Non-Religion Category, and Intra-Faith Muslim cooperation. Published for OnFaith.Co (formerly Washington Post).

Full Interview

Sahil Badruddin: Dalia, thank you for giving us this interview.

Dalia Mogahed: Thank you for having me.

Perception of Islam and Muslims in the West

Sahil: In the past decade, especially Muslims have engaged in outreach initiatives to help correct the perception of Islam in the West and the world generally. You, for example, co-authored the book Who Speaks For Islam?: What a Billion Muslims Really Think. This was based on six years of research and more than 50,000 interviews. Fortunately, today we’re seeing Muslims on television and in films, but if you look at the general perception of Islam today, it would seem there is still a long road ahead.

What factors might be overwhelming or negating progress to change this perception? Could it be the political rhetoric, the media bias, violent “radical Islam”, lack of long-term education about Islam, perhaps a combination or even other forces are at play?

Dalia: Thank you for the question. I do think that it’s a number of factors. The first being that there is a well-funded, well-organized industry that has no other goal than to manufacture fear against Islam and Muslims. The Islamophobia industry had access to more than $200 million between 2008 and 2013. You look at just that budget and this is a budget of groups that do literally nothing but churn out material, whether it’s in written form, video, sometimes in the form of on the street, so called protests targeting Islam and Muslims.

The Islamophobia industry had access to more than $200 million between 2008 and 2013 … that do literally nothing but churn out material, whether it’s in written form, video … You look at that budget and you compare it to the budget of groups that are working for tolerance, or groups that are working for better understanding or education, the numbers are so much bigger on the side of organized hate. That’s one factor. We are out-funded and outorganized by hate.

You look at that budget and you compare it to the budget of groups that are working for tolerance, or groups that are working for better understanding or education, the numbers are so much bigger on the side of organized hate. That’s one factor. We are out-funded and outorganized by hate. Groups that work for factual, accurate understanding are just not as lucrative. It’s not as lucrative to do that than as it is to be on the other side. That’s one factor.

A second factor is media bias. Media bias is real. It’s outrageous. In 2015, 90% of coverage of Islam and Muslims was negative and this is now mainstream news media not the fringe Islamophobic media. The thing is about the Islamophobic industry is it feeds into mainstream media so mainstream media is heavily impacted by the Islamophobic industry. Then, there is, of course, political rhetoric. We know that around election years, Anti-Muslim sentiments spikes. The perceived connection between Islam and violence spikes in the American public even when there is no new violent acts.

In fact, violent acts, real violent acts, do less to spike them, perception that Islam and violence are connected than they do less to grow that perception than does a presidential campaign. When you actually look at the facts, it’s interesting to know that real Muslim extremists are less harmful to the image of Islam than are politicians who will do more to elevate the public’s perception of Islam and violence than an actual terrorist attack. When you combine all of those things, it paints a pretty clear picture why we haven’t made more progress despite what feels like a lot of work.

We know that around election years, Anti-Muslim sentiments spikes. … [It’s] interesting to know that real Muslim extremists are less harmful to the image of Islam than are politicians who will do more to elevate the public’s perception of Islam and violence than an actual terrorist attack. … [And it] paints a pretty clear picture why we haven’t made more progress despite what feels like a lot of work.

Sahil: How do we change perceptions perhaps more quickly? Would it be through popular culture, stories, movies, TV, etc? What other areas would you, personally, like to see more Muslim presence?

Dalia: I definitely think popular culture is very important. We need a lot more diversity in Hollywood whether it’s Muslim or other people of color. I also think that just public education is extremely important. Aside from all of that, we actually have to find a way to call out, expose, and make clear that the Islamophobic industry is a harm to every American. Unless we cut off the poison, the body is never going to be healthy no matter how many vitamins we give it. That’s really the analogy I feel we have to understand.

Islamophobia is a cancer. It is a harm to and a danger to every American not just Muslims. When Americans are fed fear day in and day out, it’s impossible to be healthy. It’s impossible to overcome that no matter how much exercise or vitamins or fruits and vegetables we eat. There has to be a greater effort in challenging, calling out, and stopping the-churning out of hate-filled material. A lot of people might hear that and think that I’m suggesting curtailing freedom of speech and actually I’m not at all.

If you look at our society, there are certain things that we no longer say and do. There are certain words we no longer use to describe groups of people. There are certain cartoons that are no longer acceptable in our society even though they were, say, 80 years ago. We’ve decided, as a society, that we have evolved beyond that, not because it’s now illegal, it’s just now considered morally repugnant. The question isn’t “Can we?” but “Should we?” And as a society, collectively, to certain things we should say, “No, we should not.” We should not speak that way. We should not tolerate that kind of racism. It is time for us to recognize as a society that Islamophobia is actually harming our democracy, and because of that we have to say no to it as a society and evolve beyond it.

Islamophobia is a cancer. It is a harm to and a danger to every American not just Muslims. … If you look at our society, there are certain things that we no longer say and do. There are certain words we no longer use to describe groups of people. … It is time for us to recognize as a society that Islamophobia is actually harming our democracy …

Sahil: To follow the same analogy you just said, in your 2016 TED Talk, you said “Muslims, like all other Americans, aren’t the tumor in the body of America. We are a vital organ.” Speaking specifically about narrative and storytelling, what stories could Muslims share, commonly, to break through the lack of empathy or negative perceptions?

Dalia: I think the stories that need to be told are of one of humanity. It’s an interesting question because I think that a lot of us are tired of having to prove our humanity to our fellow citizens. A lot of us are tired of giving white America the ability to certify our humanity by appealing to them for that certification. Muslims are human beings. The stories I think we need to tell are ones of complexity, humanity, not perfect people.

We also need to tell another story that isn’t just about why Muslims are good, but rather calling out unflinchingly, unapologetically double standard and the hypocrisy of requiring Muslims to prove their humanity. I say that with love. I say that with compassion for the public that has been misinformed. We cannot cuddle racism. We cannot accommodate it by continuing to appeal to it, to certify our humanity. I think that stopping short of calling it out, pointing it out, making people aware of their unintentional bias will never get us to where we need to be. I think we need to apply some tough love and treat people like they’re adults not treat them with kid’s gloves. The time for all of that is completely over.

A lot of us are tired of giving white America the ability to certify our humanity by appealing to them for that certification. Muslims are human beings. … I think we need to apply some tough love and treat people like they’re adults not treat them with kid’s gloves.

Sahil: You’ve cited several studies in neuroscience which show when people are afraid, at least three things happen. They become more accepting of authoritarianism, conformity and prejudice. Are there any other potential solutions you might provide to Muslims, or other relevant organizations and groups to be more effective in changing perceptions or to rethink their strategy?

Dalia: There is a number of things that have been shown to be effective. First, is the strategy I just pointed out is actually calling things out, has actually been shown in research to be more effective than continuing to accommodate people’s prejudice, and just try to make them feel safe. I think that just meeting people where they are, and then gently guiding them to a different place is one narrative that, I think, we need to incorporate a lot more.

Another really important strategy is coalition building. The more that people can work across color and creed for a common goal of a more just society, the more likely they are to succeed. The third is, I think we have to do a lot better job of holding media accountable. The media is supposed to inform the public. It’s supposed to provide a way for democracy to happen by informing the citizenry. When it stops doing that, when it starts to do the opposite by disinforming people, we owe it to our democracy to make a correction to that.

I think that people need to feel much more empowered to call for meetings with their local editorial boards, to write in when they read something that’s blatantly biased. Before they can do that, they have to educate themselves on what that bias looks like and how to spot it.

… The strategy I just pointed out is actually calling things out, has actually been shown in research to be more effective than continuing to accommodate people’s prejudice, and just try to make them feel safe.

Sahil: Quoting another study you use which shows that when subjects were exposed to new stories that were negative about Muslims, they became more accepting of military attacks on Muslim countries and policies that curtail the rights of Muslims such as American Muslims.

The media, as you said, often focuses on sensational, violent and negative stories of which the Muslim world has managed to offer over the past few decades. This, unfortunately, dominates the news to the exclusion of many positive stories, which are not reported, leading to clearly skewed perceptions of the Muslim world. What else can be done to address this bias?

Dalia: I think a couple of things. First, communities have to learn more about how the media works and learn how to pitch positive stories, develop relationships with editors and reporters so that those stories are heard and increase the chances of them being reported on. That’s the responsibility of the community. There is responsibility on media outlets to look for those stories, to listen when those stories are brought to them and to actually report on them. I think it’s a responsibility of both sides.

I have seen situations where communities do everything I just said. It’s a compelling story. It’s timely. It’s interesting. There is beautiful visuals that are possible, and yet they are still ignored by even their local media. On the other side, I’ve also seen media try to write some of these more complex human stories, and find it hard to break into the community and find the right people to talk to. I do think it’s a responsibility of both sides, but it has to become a priority, both for communities around the country as well as media outlets.

Polling and Data Metrics

Sahil: Given your extensive work with polling, I wanted to take this opportunity to help our audience understand polling better, as numbers are throwing out all the time. Just a couple of years ago, the Pew Forum polled Egyptians, and 64% said that the death penalty should be the punishment for apostasy, leaving the faith, despite the neighboring countries have only about 5 to 10% who believe the same thing. To make things even more complicated, the same poll also shows 75% of Egyptians want complete religious liberty.

Given this contradiction which really shows, I would say, the lived experience of religious people, what are common mistakes or misunderstandings people often have when they read or cite polls?

Dalia: That’s a really good question. I’m glad you’ve asked about how to consume polls in a critical way. First of all, when you’re looking at a poll, the first question you ask is, “What’s the sample of representative?” In the case of Pew, the answer is yes, they do very high quality polling and their samples are representative. The way you know a sample is representative is not by how large the sample size is. This is a very popular misconception. People often say, “That’s just a sample of 1,000, and then this other poll has a sample of 80,000 so it must be more representative.” That’s completely wrong.

People often say, “That’s just a sample of 1,000, and then this other poll has a sample of 80,000 so it must be more representative.” That’s completely wrong. Representation actually has very little to do with how large a sample is. It has to do with the quality of the sample and how it was selected.

Representation, actually has very little to do with how large a sample is. It has to do with the quality of the sample and how it was selected. A representative sample is one where every citizen in the country has a chance, and an equal chance, to have been selected for the survey. If my sample consists of people on Facebook that just decided to answer the survey, that is not a representative sample because you didn’t give every single person an equal chance of getting chosen for the sample. Not everyone saw your ad. Not everyone has Facebook. Not everyone has internet. Not everyone has electricity. It’s a terrible way to do it. Even if you have 80,000 people in your so-called sample that’s not representative.

What Pew does and what Gallup does, the company I used to work for, and what a good polling firm will do, is they will use methods that select households for interviews at random, therefore, everyone has an equal chance of being selected so 1,000 people are more representative than 80,000 done on Facebook. That’s one thing to just always ask to begin with.

The second question I ask is, “How was the question phrased?” What other questions in the survey help to explain what people may have meant. Now, in the case of this question which gets brought up quite a bit, especially by liberal Islamophobes. It’s interesting that as you said neighboring countries don’t hold the same view. It’s something peculiar to Egypt. It’s not something peculiar to Muslims. That’s one thing to keep in mind is, is this something I’m going to generalize over Islam, Muslims and everyone from the faith, or is this something that we need to figure out what’s going on in Egypt.

The question, I believe, was one of asking people a theological question and then being interpreted in a very political way. As an Egyptian, I’m an Egyptian, we are taught in our traditional Islamic education that anyone who leaves the faith, in theory, the penalty is death, which sounds extremely…a violation of religious freedom, of course. I, personally, don’t believe that that is the correct interpretation of Islamic law, but it is the conventional way that people are taught. When they’re asked, they basically recite what they were told or taught somewhere along the way.

As an Egyptian, I’m an Egyptian, we are taught in our traditional Islamic education that anyone who leaves the faith, in theory, the penalty is death … I, personally, don’t believe that that is the correct interpretation of Islamic law, but it is the conventional way that people are taught. Now, is this actually ever implemented? Is that the law in Egypt? Do people actually get executed for leaving a faith? They actually do not.

Now, is this actually ever implemented? Is that the law in Egypt? Do people actually get executed for leaving a faith? They actually do not. This is also not something that happens to people even in cases of vigilante violence against people. I’m not saying it never happens, but that is not a widespread crisis that Egyptians are undergoing. It is a very theoretical response based on how people have been educated according to a certain medieval, pre-modern interpretation.

I will add that that interpretation is usually understood in a pre-modern context where leaving the faith actually is assumed to mean an act of treason, is joining an enemy force to fight against your previous community. It’s more of a political change of sides rather than simply a question of freedom of conscience, but those two things have been conflated and people are understanding it this way. I think this is a reflection of how Egyptians are educated on this question rather than something that was deeply thought about and is being acted on in any way, shape, or form.

Now, as someone who holds a different point of view in my own religious understanding, I would love to change the way Egyptians are educated about this. I want a different conversation to happen in religious circles and in religious educational institutions that reexamines this question and re-understands it, in a way that I think is actually more authentic to the spirit it’s in. “Am I going to succeed in trying to make that happen by approaching this question with humility and compassion?” or, “Will I succeed in reforming this understanding by ridiculing and demonizing these communities?”

That’s where I really have a very hard time with so-called liberalist Islamophobia because it is all about feeling superior rather than any real concern for these communities. Demonizing and dehumanizing these communities by putting out these poll findings so out of context does absolutely nothing to improve the situation and does absolutely nothing to even empower the folks on the ground trying to make change indigenously. All it does is to say, “We’re more civilized and they’re barbaric.” In fact, hurts and feeds into reactionary forces in the region.

… I really have a very hard time with so-called liberalist Islamophobia because it is all about feeling superior rather than any real concern for these communities. Demonizing and dehumanizing these communities by putting out these poll findings so out of context does absolutely nothing to improve the situation and does absolutely nothing to even empower the folks on the ground trying to make change indigenously.

Sahil: On a different note, what impact, from your experience, have polls and other data metrics been in changing perceptions and attitudes. Does it change people’s minds or is it better to deal with perceptions through relationships and personal interactions?

Dalia: I don’t think it’s either/or. I absolutely think relationships and personal interactions are very —

Sahil: Combination.

Dalia: Thank the Lord polls do actually also help to change perceptions. Otherwise, my whole life’s works is useless.

Sahil: I’m sure that’s not the case. [laughs]

Dalia: I certainly hope not. One study actually found that some of the American public’s perception of Muslims and specifically the dehumanization of Muslims was improved by reading an article which contained polling data that said that Muslims admired certain things about American culture. After reading this article that contained this data, people had a more humanized view of Muslims.

So no, data actually can work. It actually can help bring people’s opinions, perceptions to a more accurate place. Relationships are incredibly important as well. I do think it’s both.

Sahil: Any final thoughts or advise you want to give or you want to provide for better understanding and utilizing poll data?

Dalia: I think that poll data always has to be contextualized. I don’t think you can throw around a number and think you understand a community. It’s important that polling data is interpreted by people familiar with that community, familiar with its history, familiar with its modern debates, so that it can be understood properly. I think that these numbers that you cite about Egyptian culture are perfect example that where someone throws these around as proof of Muslim barbarism without really understanding the full history and the full background.

I think that poll data always has to be contextualized. I don’t think you can throw around a number and think you understand a community. It’s important that polling data is interpreted by people familiar with that community, familiar with its history, familiar with its modern debates, so that it can be understood properly.

Sahil: In another poll from the Pew Forum, around 24% of Americans self-identify themselves as non-affiliated, non-religious believing in some form of spirituality and the divine but not really identifying with one particular religion. Within that, if you’re under the age of 30, interestingly, there’s a 66% chance you’re in this non-affiliated category. Why do you think there’s a sudden increase in the non-affiliated group?

Dalia: It’s a really good question. I’m not sure what the answer is. Interestingly, young Muslim Americans tend to be, actually as likely as their elders to be religious or to claim that religion as an important part of their daily life. What that means for them and how they practice is a different story. They are less likely to attend the mosque but they’re just as likely to say religion is important to them, unlike their peers, their age peers or fellow generational peers, in other faiths where young people or non-Muslim are far less likely than their elders to say religion is important.

Now, why is religion losing importance in the lives of young people in the general public? There’s lots of reasons I can think of but it would all be speculation. I don’t really study that. What I do study are American Muslims. In that case, they are much more likely to be alienated from a mosque but not from their faith itself. They, I think, at least compared to their elders, remain devoted to the ethical framework of Islam even if the way they’re practicing maybe different from their elders.

Experience with President Barack Obama’s Inaugural Advisory Council

Sahil: You were a member of President Barack Obama’s Inaugural Advisory Council on Faith-Based Neighborhood Partnerships. Could you talk about your experience and how you were able to help increase more faith-based alliances?

Dalia: Well, as a member of the President’s Advisory Council, I think my biggest accomplishment was actually to help mobilize and then document the contributions of American Muslims to community service. The president had called on the nation to serve in their community, to alleviate the impact of what, at that time, was really an economic crisis in our country. I worked with community leaders, both local and national, to put together service projects. Our goal was that, at least a quarter of them, would be in cooperation with other faith communities and that we would come up at the very end very with, at the end of the summer, with a thousand days of service, across the country.

My promise to the community was that if we could meet those two goals, a thousand days of service, quarter at least done in cooperation with another faith, that I would deliver this report to the president myself. People put the word out. People used everything from Friday khutbahs to Facebook. When we collected all of the projects at the end of summer, it was more than 3,000 days of service and close to 95% of them were actually done with another faith community. I don’t take any credit for that other than counting that this was happening and compiling it.

I think my biggest accomplishment was actually to help mobilize and then document the contributions of American Muslims to community service. … I did hand it to the president in a report. … It was the Muslims, while the smallest faith communities who had actually done the most service that summer.

In fact, I did hand it to the president in a report. It made up the lion’s share of the projects that were collected by the White House that summer. It was the Muslims, while the smallest faith communities who had actually done the most service that summer. I tell you that story and I share it because, I think a lot of the problem is that we, ourselves, don’t know what else is going on.

I was surprised that the fact that there were more than 33 free Muslim clinics around the country. I had no idea about that. I was surprised that some of the projects that were being carried out, alliances and cooperation between Muslim charities and native American schools on reservations. I had no idea that was happening. That there were educational programs against human trafficking in our urban centers here in America led by Muslims. I didn’t know that. That there were projects across the country to feed the hungry and to clothe the poor, to provide toiletries and other sanitary products for the homeless, etc. The list goes on and on and on. The greening of mosques, the cleaning up of highways.

Had the president not made this call to service, a lot of these projects were already happening. Some were inspired by the president’s call, but had we not tried to compile and count, we wouldn’t have known. Most of these projects had no idea other projects were happening that were just like them in other parts of the country.

Sahil: Interesting.

Dalia: When we compiled everything, and I showed it back to the community, so “This is what you guys just do. This is who you are.” People were blown away.

Their own picture of themselves, their own perception of who they are as a community, it’s so skewed, just as much by the media as anyone else. Even though they might be serving, they think they’re the only ones. They’re not. They’re actually the norm. This is what it means to be a Muslim American.

Sahil: On various occasions, you’ve made the distinction that while you had access to the Obama administration and even other relevant organizations, it didn’t always need to direct influence. Access doesn’t always mean influence, as you say.

Dalia: Yes.

Advice to Future Leaders

Sahil: So what advice would you give to future leaders to leverage grassroot efforts to make a tremendous difference, and even eventually garner attention at the national level?

Dalia: You’re absolutely right. I often point out that one thing I learned is that, no access doesn’t equal influence. What I mean by that is just having a seat at the table does not mean you are going to influence anything. What you need to do is combine access with leverage, and then you get influence. Access with something to prove. It’s something to offer and something to take away, that equals influence. Not just being there. Not just occupying space. Not just warming a chair and speaking out of your mouth. That’s not enough. If you don’t have organized people and resources behind you, and what you say is really, they’re not going to do anything.

No access doesn’t equal influence. … What, I think, Muslims, Muslim Americans generally, not all of us, but many of us don’t understand is the difference between access and influence. We think access equals influence, and it does not.

I saw it so clearly in the way that other communities came to the table. They came to the table with the ability to mobilize 20 million voters. That’s influence. When you combine access to with the ability to mobilize 20 million voters, that equals influence. Coming to a table and just being there, that’s access without any influence. What, I think, Muslims, Muslim Americans generally, not all of us, but many of us don’t understand is the difference between access and influence. We think access equals influence, and it does not. We don’t come to the table, having done that homework of mobilizing at the grassroots of organized money and organized people.

And in the absence of that, all the wonderful access we had to re-enable in the administration really did not amount to a whole lot of impact on policy. I hope that these four years of not having any access, obviously, or at least most of us don’t have access nor do we seek it, we can do that at home. We can do that organizing on the ground so that if and when we ever have access again, we come prepared and utilize that access to make real impact that makes a positive difference in our country.

Interfaith Connections

Sahil: You’ve said that while Muslims in the West, especially America, have been keen towards building interfaith bridges, they’ve unfortunately even amongst themselves, have not been as effective in working with Blacks and Latinos. Why is that?

Dalia: One of our weak blind spots, I think, in our community among Arab and Asian American Muslims, is that we have framed our outreach in terms of interfaith. What interfaith often means, especially in suburban community where a lot of Arab and Asian Americans live, is white churches and synagogues. That’s how people understand interfaith. Where they haven’t done as much work or any work is in interfaith among people of color, in intercultural alliances. And it’s incredibly important that targeted communities, which are now people of color across religious backgrounds, work together.

One of our weak blind spots, I think, in our community among Arab and Asian American Muslims, is that we have framed our outreach in terms of interfaith. What interfaith often means, especially in suburban community where a lot of Arab and Asian Americans live, is white churches and synagogues. That’s how people understand interfaith. Where they haven’t done as much work or any work is in interfaith among people of color, in intercultural alliances.

Muslim communities, especially Arab and Asian forge those relationships and expand what it means to work with other communities of faith to finish off. I think, there once a sense among many people, whether conscious or unconscious, in the Arab and Asian American communities, where they had this aspirational whiteness. That is if worked hard enough, they made enough money, had a nice enough house, good enough job, that they would be white. They would enter the hierarchy of racial- ascend the racial hierarchy and be honorary whites.

9-11 kind of disabused people that or should have. Then, Trump really disabuse people of that. So I hope that the people gotten the memo that that is, a) not going to happen, and b) should not even be a goal. Recognize that in our faith and in our Prophet’s example; he relinquished privilege in order to stand for truth and to be aligned with the vulnerable. That’s exactly what Muslim should always do rather than run after privilege and turn away from both truth and the vulnerable.

In some ways, Trump is a blessing because it forces — he forces and his phenomenon. The wave that brought him forces the reality on Muslims that our faith and just reality on the ground should make it clear that we need to align with the marginalized, the vulnerable and stand with justice, and truth rather than run after an aspiration that really will never happen.

Intra-Muslim Relationships

Sahil: Like you said, speaking about intra-Muslim, Muslim-to-Muslim relationships, in these times, how can Muslims better support each other?

Dalia: This is such an important issue. I think one of the biggest challenges Muslims are facing today is internal fragmentation. I think, if we can overcome that, we’d be so much stronger. So how should communities overcome fragmentation? It’s like its own field of study. I think that learning about each other’s history is essential. I think that working together to meet a common goal is essential. I actually think collaboration, on a local level, needs to be built into how regional organizations operate.

I’ve actually recommended to umbrella organizations that serve the needs of Muslims in all of Chicago or all of northern California to have each major mosque appoint a chief collaboration officer, whose only job is to find ways to collaborate with other mosque and other communities. And to set up a fund where you can only get the money for grant, for project, if you’re working across communities. We have to incentivize collaboration. We have to value collaboration. We need to award collaboration if we want it to happen.

We can’t just passively hope that one day will happen. We have to work proactively to make sure that it does happen. I think that maybe some of these practical nudges in the right direction will eventually bring about a stronger community, but a lot of these is deep. It’s going to take generations because it’s baggage. It’s baggage from American culture. It’s baggage from cultures from other parts of the world that have been impacted by white supremist thinking. We have to overcome that.

I think one of the biggest challenges Muslims are facing today is internal fragmentation. I think, if we can overcome that, we’d be so much stronger. … We can’t just passively hope that one day will happen. We have to work proactively to make sure that it does happen.

Action-Oriented Faith Leadership

Sahil: Turning to the future now, what guidance would you give to help Americans and the world, generally, move beyond just advisory and consulting-based faith partnerships to more participatory and action-oriented faith leadership?

Dalia: Well, I think the first step in becoming faith-based leaders is to recognize the moment we’re in in our country’s history. We are not victims. We are, in fact, people who are being called on by their faith to play an incredibly important role to save our country from itself. And while we may be the first to feel it, like canaries on a coal mine, the toxic climate of fear and disinformation is up to everyone. We have to think of ourselves in a different way, first of all, as people who have something to offer, have something to give, have an important role to play, because we are inheritors of an ethical framework that calls us to stand for justice. So that’s the first step.

The second step is to do the introspection, the self-purification, and the self-resistance to be in the right spiritual space to be able to play that role, to divorce ourselves of ego, to free ourselves of the wrong kind of ambition, to find that psychological space of being a true servant leader. The third step is to organize across coloring and creed. This just extremely important. We have to never allow ourselves to feel isolated and to reach out to other impacted communities, and work together.

I think the first step in becoming faith-based leaders is to recognize the moment we’re in in our country’s history. We are not victims. … The second step is to do the introspection, the self-purification, and the self-resistance to be in the right spiritual space to be able to play that role, to divorce ourselves of ego …

Then, we have to start to become involved politically. That’s starts with voting but it’s so much more than that. Running for office, working on campaigns, all these things are now really necessities. We have to take our country back. But it requires the hallmark, the foundational pieces that I explained, to begin with.

Sahil: Dalia, thank you for this interview.

Dalia: Thank you.

About Dalia Mogahed

Dalia Mogahed is the Director of Research at the Institute for Social Policy and Understanding, where she leads the organization’s pioneering research and thought leadership programs on American Muslims. Mogahed is former Executive Director of the Gallup Center for Muslim Studies, where she led the analysis of surveys of Muslim communities worldwide. With John L. Esposito, she co-authored the book Who Speaks for Islam? What a Billion Muslims Really Think. President Barack Obama appointed Mogahed to the President’s Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships in 2009. She was invited to testify before the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations about U.S. engagement with Muslim communities. Her 2016 TED talk was named one of the top TED talks that year. She is a frequent expert commentator in global media outlets and international forums. She is also the CEO of Mogahed Consulting. Twitter: @DMogahed.